Subduing the
Demons in America
An Interview with John Giorno

By Bill DeNoyelles

Part 3

Balling Buddha
“Buddhism is actually ambivalent about gay discrimination. I thought about that 10 or 15 years ago and made sort of a big thing about it. In the Sutrayana there is discrimination against being gay. It’s sexual misconduct and one of those bad karma things where you go to a lower realm. It turned out that the Buddha was just reflecting his time. The Mahayana is compassion. The Vajrayana uses it (sexuality) as positive. So Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism treat everything as useful on the path to realization.

“I had always felt a propensity toward Tibetan Buddhism. I went to Columbia and took the Oriental Humanities course with Alan Watts. It was the second year it was given. In 1956, ’57 and ’58 there was no Dharma anywhere. The course was so small. We’d go and study all these philosophical concepts everyday. I’d go with a hangover. Learning all this stuff didn’t solve anything. I didn’t understand the empty nature of mind any better. It was sort of a turn off after a couple of years. I was studying all this philosophy and just went on drinking. My thought during those years was–how do I realize this? My path was not Zen Buddhism. There was Zen Buddhism in America but somehow my path didn’t get there. I just went on looking.

“Then the sixties happened with all the drugs. As you know when you’re having a good LSD trip it’s very blissful, it’s heaven. When you’re having a bad LSD trip all that means is that you’re grasping at something–whether it’s anger, rejection or whatever. I took a lot of acid like everyone else did. I knew a little bit about meditation by that time. Sort of gossip meditation–Hindu or Buddhist. I didn’t know exactly what it was but I sort of knew what they did. When I was having a bad trip or a good trip I would sit. I saw the photographs of meditation postures in magazines or newspapers. I’d sit while tripping. It’s interesting in that the mind is self-teaching. When I was having a good trip or had hit a peak moment on LSD if I just sat, rested the mind and didn’t follow any thoughts I realized a blissful experience of clarity and luminosity. If I would follow a thought I’d feel like I was falling down the stairs. I realized that when I followed a thought it caused suffering. If the thought arises, is seen clearly and let go of, one goes back to that clear luminosity and bliss. Through out the sixties, since I didn’t have any meditation instruction, I did this. I realized that if one stopped thinking this thought something happened. The mind rested in great equanimity. As soon as one thought of one’s lover again or fear of being rejected then one started the trouble again. I did this over and over again.

Not knowing what meditation was, I was doing it — meditation through trial and error.

“As the years went by I realized Buddhism was my affinity. My attraction was to the Tibetan Buddhists even though nobody knew them. No one knew they were in India other than as refugees until the early sixties. A few people went in the mid-sixties but no one spoke English. If you made it to the Himalayas there was no real translation. It wasn’t until 1967 or ’68 that you started hearing about these great Tibetan Lamas. I always felt that propensity toward Tibetan Buddhism because of what happened on these LSD trips.

“I slowly waited for the time to happen and I made it to India in 1970-’71. It was very difficult in those years. I went to India with blinders on. India is not the easiest place to live. I didn’t know why I was there. Now everyone knows about Tibetan Buddhism and great Tibetan Lamas. Back then I kind of knew there was such a thing. But I didn’t know what they had to offer or what I had to do or why I was there.

“By 1970-’71 I was this famous poet having done Dial-A-Poem which put me everywhere from Newsweek to The Today Show. I wasn’t giving that up, I was just following something that felt better. I was following the path of my life from being in New York and America as a poet. Now I was in India walking blind in traffic, wondering if I had made a catastrophic mistake. I didn’t know if I was mad for sure, you know? I just had great devotion to the Buddha. Whenever any of these negative thoughts arose about being nuts or going home, I would recognize that doubt was one of the poisons, so I wouldn’t give up.

Part 1: Subduing the Demons in America
Part 2: Money, School and Drug
Part 3: Balling Buddha
Part 4: Up Against the Wall
Part 5: The Process
Part 6: Dial A Poem
Part 7: Grasping At Emptiness
Part 8: Kissing, Intimacy and Affection

Pornographic Poem/John Giorno